Wednesday, May 27, 2009

Shaun Lyon - on 'being a twat'

So (this might be a long email so settle down with a cuppa and a biscuit)...

Those of you who frequent the Doctor Who Forum might have noticed this morning that all mention of Obverse Books and the Iris book have been banned by Shaun Lyon. As he says,

"Please be advised that discussion, direct or indirect, of Obverse Books and/or its Iris Wildthyme material is no longer permitted in this forum under any circumstances.

Anyone who does so will have their membership revoked.

Sorry, but I won't be answering inquiries about this. Suffice to say that if you'd like any explanation, you are welcome to take it up with them."

Given that the fault for all this for once has little to do with me and everything to do with certain other people telling lies it seemed worth going public with this, and at least providing some entertainment for the faithful readers of this blog and, hopefully, the Iris book.

I promise not to editorialise or make my usual snarky comments, but essentially a poster on the Doctor Who Forum, one Magister, doesn't like me because I once or twice pointed out the idiocy of his canon argument in a thread on that forum (yes, I know, canon debates - I should know better).

He's obviously a bit mental, hence his suggestion here that a load of PE teachers should come round and give me a kicking :)

http://www.doctorwhoforum.com/showpost.php?p=7796195&postcount=412

Which is fine, really - lots of people over the years have been less than fond of me and I can no doubt be a pain in the arse at times.

However Magister then took advantage of the fact I was banned from (Steven Hill, Chief Admin of DWF, banned me rather hilariously for saying in jest that my pal Jonn was an absolute arse. In spite of Jonn immediately posting pointing out that he started it and we were pals and it was just a joke. Ho hum.)

Eh, where was I? Oh yes - Magister took advantage of my two week ban to post various things which suggested that I had used his order details improperly to find out private details about him. Starting on the 4th of May with this narky but relatively benign post where he first asked from nowhere 'How secure is the ordering system?" and then when Phil Purser-Hallard pointed out that it was 100% safe, followed up with

"I was more posting about how secure the information is within "Obverse Books", and how personal details are used by Stuart."

http://doctorwhoforum.com/showpost. php?p=8211966&postcount=172
(though its been taken down as of yesterday I think)

Bit annoying and enough to piss me off a bit, but that was all.

I did think I better say something rather than leave that hanging, so I sent a humorous (I thought) post from a new account, called 'Madge', featuring an avatar of Madge from Neighbours and styling myself 'The Representative of Obverse Industries' (any of you Jandek fans? :) as
follows:

"[QUOTE=Magister;8211966]
Thanks for the reply. I was more posting about how secure the information is within "Obverse Books", and how personal details are used by Stuart.[/QUOTE]

As Obverse Books' legal representative on doctorwhoforum.com I can assure all interested parties that Obverse Books uses only "Paypal" for its "payment" system, as this is by far the most secure such "system" around, on the grounds that Paypal only sends the customer
"address" to the vendor. No credit card details or other financial information is in any way available "to" Obverse Books.

Obverse Books has not as yet had any "order" from a Mr "Magister" but looks forward to receiving such in the "future".

Mr Douglas would also like to apologise to Mr Jonn Elledge for calling him an absolute arse and a total tit. This is patently not the case and having taken objective steps to re-appraise his position non-subjectively, Mr Douglas now finds it hard to credit he was ever so vile.

Further he would like to agree with Mr Elledge's mum that Mr Elledge is in point of fact "a very nice boy with a lovely smile" and with Mr Elledge's granny that "the other boys are just jealous of his good looks and will be his friend once they realise that that haircut works
just as well on a boy as on a girl".

Best wishes

The Representative of Obverse Industries."

http://www.doctorwhoforum.com/showpost.php?p=8220642&postcount=179

All obviously tongue in cheek and in no way intended to subvert any rules on OG but in any case I got banned for life from DWF by Steven Hill for that.

Again, not the end of the world even though it meant I would need to get Paul Magrs or CodySchell or someone to make update posts to DWF. I did send Steven Hill an email apologising for creating duplicate accounts, but also pointing out that I had made no attempt to hide that it was me and was obviously joking but that if he felt an apology was called for then I certainly apologised.

In fact, here's the full text of my email to Hill from 6 May, the day after I was banned:

Dear Steven

Apologies for the duplicate account. I was not aware that there was any stricture in place to prevent me from creating a temporary new user for a specific and, I thought, important, reason, but now that I have been made aware of that fact, I naturally understand that this
breaches the rules.

In my defence, however, I should point out that there was no attempt to create a genuine sock puppet, not did I make any attempt to hide the fact that it was me posting. It's just that I - and several other people who PM'ed and emailed me - felt my integrity was definitely
being called into question and, given the recent concerns raised by the Forbidden Planet fraud, I felt - and still feel - an immediate response was required.

I have in the past run several highly successful and profitable businesses and while Obverse Books is more by way of being a sideline, did not succeed with these companies in the past by ignoring a statement which, with the greatest respect to your post to OG, is malicious, potentially libellous, almost certainly damaging to my business and which I did consider discussing with my solicitor.

In any case I had thought that the obviously humorous and exaggerated manner in which I both answered Magister's question and apologised to Jonn for an offence which he didn't take, made it clear that I had no intention of deceiving anyone as to the identity of the poster and had expected that to be taken into account.

That said, if you feel an apology is required then please do accept my genuine apologies.

I did consider mailing you to ask if you had any objection to my setting up an Obverse Books account solely to post news about the books, but that seems largely pointless when I already have an existing account. Should my account be restored, I have decided not to post to the forum in future except where it impacts upon my book which, though a shame, is probably for the best all things considered.

I look forward to your thoughts in this matter.

Regards

Stuart Douglas

to which Hill actually replied on the 7th May (the sole reply before Shaun's final, banning obverse email) as follows:

Stuart,
Before I can respond to this myself, I need to have Shaun take a look at it. Any time anyone mentions legal complications, it becomes Shaun's business.
-Steve

Sadly neither Shaun nor Steven Hill bothered to get back to me after that (and Lyon presumably now claims that Hill was lying and never sent the email on at all, if his initial claim to have known nothing about the matter is accepted at face value).

Magister however continued to post. On the 8th of May he said

"I'm going to try for a final post on the subject. I'm going to Pm a copy to Steve. I'm sorry Steve if this post isn't allowed. If you have to delete it please could you also delete the referenced post by Stuart on the other thread. If this post gets deleted I wont post on this subject again.

I've gone out of my way not to be defamatory, but to make as open comments as I can so that Stuart can reply.

The start of this, which I hoped to avoid posting for Stuart's sake, was that within days of me ordering, stuart posted on the books not canon thread the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart Douglas View Post
You know, I am so glad that I've now been told who you are in real life [ - I'd hate to think you'd one day be teaching my kids]


It was that post that led me to try, without breaking forum rules, to find out from stuart how he had used my order to find out who I am in real life.

I was hoping that Stuart would reply without me having to go into details."

Now he knew I was banned and all he had to do was ask me how I knew who he was (a fact I'd mentioned in passing jokey reference) - and I would have told him the truth, that a couple of people had told me it by email. Leaving aside the fact that I had no idea he'd ordered a
book, there's no way you can do anything with a Paypal email other than read it! But rather than email me via OG or the Obverse site, he took advantage of the fact I couldn't reply to suggest pretty plainly that I was up to no good.

With no reply from Messrs Hill and Lyon thus far and Magister getting more outrageous - and as the date of publication got nearer - Paul Magrs emailed Steven Hill directly via the OG address, as follows:

Hi-

I'm a bit annoyed about this Magister bloke. It seems that he and Stuart Douglas have had a long-running debate about canonicity and other fun things. However, now it seems this Magister person has started to impugn Stuart's integrity and reliability, very publicly on the forum. To me it looks like it could have a very adverse effect on sales of the Iris Wildthyme anthology Stuart is publishing this month.

I'm not very happy about that. That book is something we've both put a lot of effort into. It's not right if a spat about something silly like continuity can end up with someone deliberately casting
aspersions on somebody's trustworthiness. That's what Magister's messages look like to me. In these straitened times it's hard to launch a new small press. It's really unhelpful to have someone
behaving as Magister seems to be doing. It looks like silliness and spite, but can have an effect on floating customers.

Stuart's been banned from OG, I believe. So he can't come back on these debates. His being banned is beside the point in all this. I don't have time to keep looking at these discussion pages, but I don't want people bad-mouthing Stuart's or Obverse Books' integrity. Will you, as a moderator, put a stop to this snideness, please?

i'll look forward to hearing from you,

paul m

Again, Paul got no reply.

I mail Hill again asking if Shaun Lyon had had a chance to look at my email yet and again get no reply. So I asked Jon Dennis, as a friend of Shaun Lyon's, to email him on my behalf, simply asking him to get in touch, as follows:.

"Shaun,

My apologies if you are no longer running the Forum, but as far as I know, you are. I'm normally loath to ask a favor like this, but Stuart Douglas' company has been subjected to some defamatory posts by some guy calling himself Magister and Steve Hill appears more interested in staying on Magister's good side. I'll admit it's partially self-interest, I have a story in the book in question and Magister seems intent on costing it some sales. At least one of these posts could be considered libellous, so I think it might be a good idea if you contact Stuart at sa douglas at gmail.com."

Shaun never got in touch at all - and presumably claims not to have received this email either.

A week or so passed with no replies from any of the emails to Shaun or Steven Hill from me, Paul or Jon, and then on the 22nd May Magister popped up again and, after a few daft snidey comments about me, posted this:

"There's a lot more I could say about one poster which I'm not allowed to by forum rules which I respect, but I do have information I ought to find a way to become more generally available. So I do bite my tongue here a lot, as I'm sure others do to and if unguarded comments are leaking out I apologise...It is my responsiblity to find a way away from OG to share the inappropriate actions of a particular poster, and I should not have referred to him here in that way. I will redouble my efforts not to do that again."

in response to a post which mentioned Phil PH and I. I was banned but Phil took reasonable umbrage and pointed out that the statement was potentially libellous and would he care to elaborate. He sent Phil a PM apologising to him and confirming that his quarrel was with me.
He's of the opinion that I'd "used" the personal details he submitted with his order for the Iris book, which is demonstrably neither possible nor the case, as he'd been told on OG when he first brought the matter up.

That last post was the straw that broke the camel's back for me as was a follow up post where he 'apologised' for the allegation while simply repeating it.

With the book coming out in a week and these posts presumably putting some level of doubt in the minds of the potential readership (already spooked by the FP International issues just previously), I spoke to a mate who's a lawyer in the States and showed him the same email
chain I've added above. He said that the final post in particular was "defamatory" and "likely to do material damage to [my] business" and definitely actionable. I told him that I didn't want to do that - apart from anything else it's expensive, I could conceivably lose and - most importantly - it would be overkill. He suggested I therefore send an email to Shaun Lyon via as secure a method as possible, laying out the problem in a calm manner, as one professional adult to
another, and pointing out that as owner of the forum, Shaun Lyon was legally liable for the content contained on it, especially if it has been previously brought to his attention.

I asked round, got two different email addresses for Shaun from mutual friends, plus got Jon Dennis to send the email via Facebook mail so that he couldn't pretend not to have received it, although I suspected that the suggestion of legal consequences should at least guarantee a
reply.

What I sent was:

Dear Shaun

I am extremely sorry to have to bother you but as Steven Hill has chosen to ignore emails from myself and Paul Magrs and continues to allow one poster, Magister, to make posts on OG which increasingly look likely to force me to instigate formal legal proceedings against
you, it seems best to at least attempt to go over his head before I have to spend further money on lawyers.

I have no idea if you know what has been going on over on the DWF but as you are the owner of that site you are unfortunately legally liable for the content posted on it, particularly if that content has been reported for potentially illegal activity and nothing has been done by the people you appoint to run the boards.

Please note that this is not a plea to be reinstated on the forum, from which I am currently banned by Mr Hill. Mr Hill is in my opinion clearly partial, but membership of a public forum is equally clearly in the purview of the owner and his representatives and if you feel that DWF is better served without my presence then that is your decision.

However, this Magister has some vendetta against me quite out of proportion to the fact that I have on several occasions pointed out - I admit possibly less than politely - the foolishness of both his arguments and of his ability to use English correctly.

So out of proportion have they become in fact that one of his latest posts (number 792 in the Canon thread in the Books section) is most definitely libellous and aimed at me. The libel is self-evident - in reply to a post from BryanB in which Bryan pointed out that Magister's
previous post was both defamatory towards Phil Purser-Hallard and I - Magister said, in part,

"There's a lot more I could say about one poster which I'm not allowed to by forum rules which I respect, but I do have information I ought to find a way to become more generally available...It is my responsibility to find a way away from OG to share the inappropriate
actions of a particular poster, and I should not have referred to him here in that way. I will redouble my efforts not to do that again."

and then confirmed to Phil by PM, when he quite rightly replied to highlight the libel contained therein, that he was talking about me.

His problem is that he in some way believes that I have misused a Paypal email from him to identify who he is, when this is in fact utterly impossible (as he has been told) - while obviously anyone who buys a product online needs to put his name and address down, there is
no magister@ email in the orders thus far and so no way in which I could identify him from that.

In fact, I had no idea he had ordered a book and was actually sent the same name for Magister by three separate people within a couple of days of one another advising that should I ever need to legal action against him for the more inappropriate things he had said about me
that his name would be helpful. Had Magister emailed me directly I would have told him this, but instead he has chosen to continue to post false claims about me, with the collusion of Mr Hill and, therefore, the approval of yourself.

I have spoken to a lawyer who specialises in US law and he tells me that this statement, when combined with confirmation of its target, is certainly libellous and likely to cause material harm to my business (in this instance, Obverse Books), especially given that any suspicion
- or hint of mistrust - about my handling of credit card details could be particularly damaging in light of the recent card fraud from Forbidden Planet International sales.

I am informed that all of this, combined with DWF's failure to take appropriate action in the face of multiple and repeated complaints about Magister, is a solid basis for a civil action.

As examples of these multiple complaints, Paul Magrs wrote directly to Mr Hill via the DWF email address but received no reply as did I; several people have reported Magister's posts multiple times using the DWF Report function; and others have posted directly in the thread
itself highlighting various inappropriate and potentially legally damaging posts by Magister - only to be effectively told to shut up by Mr Hill. All of these people are happy to confirm their actions.

As I say I am not attempting to be reinstated to the forum, but for all that Obverse is not my primary business it is a business nonetheless, and I thus have no choice but to take some action to ensure that Magister is no longer allowed to post libellously about me on a public forum and to obtain an apology and public retraction from Magister for the libels he has posted thus far.

I would be grateful if you could both reply to confirm receipt of this email and give some thought to its contents. I should stress that I am more than willing to take foral legal action in this matter if need be but would obviously prefer to avoid such unpleasantness over a problem which can be easily solved from your side.

I look forward to hearing from you but if I have had no reply with in one week of today then I will assume you are unwilling to take any action and are giving formal as opposed to merely tacit approval to Magister's activities on your forum, and will act accordingly to protect my personal and professional reputation.

Regards

Stuart Douglas

For once, Shaun Lyon replied quite quickly - the following morning the email below was in my Inbox (and in Paul's too incidentally).

"Stuart,

I think you have a lot of nerve, opening a dialogue with a person you've never met -- and who had no idea about ANY of this -- by taking a warning shot. Not a friendly "by the way". Not a "can you please help?" None of that. Just a reprehensible "Shaun, I have a problem, and if you don't solve it, I'm going to try to fuck you over." I am absolutely *disgusted* that you would choose this tack with me, considering that so many of your contributors are people I know personally... Mark Wright, Jonathan Dennis, Steve Cole, Steve Lyons, Steve Wickham, and especially Katy Manning. If it was your intention of being a twat, you've been a great success at it.

I read Magister's post in question, and frankly, if I wasn't one of the twelve or so people who might actually know what he's on about, I would have completely bypassed it. Whatever. I've taken Magister's post, and a reply to it, and removed it. I'm going to warn him not to
make any statements against you in future. I've put my staff on alert that he is not allowed to make any further comment about this, and should he, he will be removed from the forum.

Meanwhile, I am hereby letting you know that the discussion of your book and/or Obverse Books is hereby a topic non grata in my discussion forum. Period. I don't want anyone mentioning it, nobody discussing it, nobody putting links to it in their signature files, etc. As it
is *my* Forum, I don't want one single byte of my bandwith used for the promotion of your material. If you'd like to share that fact with your contributors, be my guest... be sure you make note of the fact that you threatened to sue straight off the bat.

Does that work for you, or is there anything else you'd like to take umbrage with?

Shaun Lyon

I said wouldn't editorialise so I won't mention Lyon's aggressive attitude or even the swearing, but one thing he seems to think is that in some way I would have issues in telling anyone what had happened. Which is why I copied this mesage to every one of the book contributors, the contributors Lyon seems to believe I would be avoiding for some reason - every message, post and mail of which can be confirmed as the truth by a variety of other people involved. I also copied Shaun Lyon in on it - I've no idea why he thinks I would have a problem explaining why he's banned the Iris book from his forum given that I'm certainly not the one who ends up looking a 'twat'...

And remember kids - www.obversebooks.co.uk to buy a copy of Iris Wildthyme and the Celestial Omnibus!

Out now!

Oh, and some relevant blog posts...

Philip Purser-Hallard's blog

Simon Bucher-Jones' blog

Jon Dennis' LJ

Louise Dennis' LJ


Alex's Blog

[NB I got an email today saying that it was a breach of netiquette to put private emails online. Fair point, but in my defence I should point out that the main reason I put this online as opposed to my original email to the book contributors is that Lyon emailed one of the writers and told him to ignore anything I said because I was a liar. And I mailed all the contributors with the exact post I made below, missing nothing out but adding nothing in, several of them advised similar contact and suggested I put it all on my blog. As the posts below demonstrate, I have nothing to hide. Meanwhile Lyon is defriending anyone on Facebook who so much as mentions Obverse Books.]

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35 Comments:

Blogger Chiana said...

I ordered a copy, it's now a must read book!

10:25 am  
Blogger Stuart Douglas said...

Hee - it's true, all publicity is good publicity!

Hope you like the book...

10:36 am  
Blogger James said...

??!!!

11:59 am  
Blogger Outpost said...

I'm shocked at the treatment you guys have been afforded by DWF. As head of Outpost Skaro, we hear stories like this every day, but this has got to take the biscuit. Feel free to join us in our forum and begin your own thread with regards to the publications, plug away and comment how you want without fear of editing.

DWF have taken another shameful step away from democracy.

1:26 pm  
Blogger Richard said...

I have no real interest or personal investment in the situation, but just reading this account makes me want to go buy the book, just on general principle.

2:09 pm  
Blogger Stuart Douglas said...

Hi Richard

Please do - that's our new cunning marketing plan! :)

2:14 pm  
Blogger Simon said...

Doh you got me! Copy ordered.

The reaction to your polite request to Shaun is unbelievable, you do all the "sorry to trouble you" bit and he beahves as if you didn't and launch straight into a tirade.

2:40 pm  
Blogger Kyle said...

Just want to give my support to you and your book. It's a shame events like this have occurred but I hope you will rise above it and your book be a massive success.

2:57 pm  
OpenID dberry said...

Hello!

I run Unreality-SF.net which, amongst other things, covers Doctor Who and (to a much lesser extent, currently) Iris Wildthyme books.

If yourself, any or all of the book's contributors, or even the charming Panda would be interested in doing an interview to promote the book, I'd be more than happy to post it on my flippin' bandwidth.

Drop me a line at contact[at]unreality-sf.net if you want. If not, no worries. Just a thought.

Either way, best of luck with the book.

:)

d.

11:11 pm  
Blogger Mr Dark said...

Sorry - tonight I have the fingers of a monkey...

I've no idea weather of not this is of any use to you - http://mr-darks-fandamonium.blogspot.com/2009/05/doctor-who-forum-discussion-banned_27.html - but I think this one of a series of story's connected with the DWF that really should be publicised - widely.

Frankly it's an absurd situation and really should be discussed - this is what the term "forum" means.

That no discussion whatsoever at all is allowed - and threats of banning ensuing for trying -frankly that's just ridiculous.

I wish you the very greatest of continued success with the books -if anyone loosing out here, it's the DWF.

My best regards, and sorry to read about your troubles. I hope in some small way the above gesture helps in some regard.

D

1:15 am  
Blogger James said...

Yes. What Simon said. With bells on.

What a childish, self-important reaction.

9:09 am  
Blogger mcgenius said...

Oh dear, what a palaver!

A top yarn though. And I do have one question.

Can your account of this mattter be deemed as "canonical" or is there some leeway for (say) Magister or Shaun L to pen some fan fiction on the same subject that might stray from the fundamental tenets of your own account?

I mean, you know what some people are like. Sometimes they errr... "seem to think that the only way to write a good story is to ignore canon"...

2:03 pm  
OpenID zey said...

Loved the IW audios. Best of luck with the book.

FWIW, this has generated an interesting discussion on The Anorak Zone (very much on your side). I'm sure they'd welcome you there for a visit, to clarify anything you think they've gone a bit overboard with and give your book some plugs too :).

5:36 pm  
Blogger Paul Cornell said...

I think from the sound of it, what this comes down to is, the first time Shaun had ever heard of you, it was you talking about legal action. He's a lovely man, he's been pushed to his limit by all sorts of things, and you guys do seem to be a bit into the whole 'let's fight on the internet' business. He's now shutting the forum down. I do think maybe you could have not assumed that everyone in that organisation was on the same page. He probably had got a note from someone else that just said 'this lot love to fight', and reacted hugely to the mention of legalities.

11:54 am  
Blogger Stuart Douglas said...

Hi Paul

Thanks for the comment, and I'd like to believe that was the case but unfortunately several people including Shaun's personal friends, contributors to the Iris book and Paul Magrs also emailed Shaun and/or Steven Hill directly, via Facebook and via the OG Forum email about the matter before that final letter, so this was not the first time he'd heard of me or the ongoing problems. And so far as I know Paul at the very least has no reputation for loving to fight and I would have said my letter is polite and professional, in marked contrast to Shaun's reply. The onyl one coming out with fighting talk was Shaun (there being a big diffrence being arguing on a forum about a silly subject like canon and reacting with name calling and swearing to a polite request to remove legally contentious posts)

As for Shaun's character, I don't know him from Adam and can only base my opinion on personal experience recently and on assorted reports from people in fandom with no obvious axe to grind who know him and who I trust - and I'm afraid very little of those reports paint him as anything approaching a 'lovely man' except when ingratiating himself.

Obviously, I doubt that the closing down of the forum had anything to do with this spat (indeed Shaun seems to be going out of his way to say that very thing) - but Shaun checked up and discovered both that the posts I was complaining about *were* potentially libellous and - more importantly - that as owner of the forum he was legally reposnsible for the content. Had he had the good sense and courtesy to do that when I first contacted him then none of this sorry mess need have occured.

2:15 pm  
Blogger Stuart Douglas said...

incidentally, that last paragrpah should read 'but Shaun possibly checked up '

2:51 pm  
Blogger Philip said...

Paul -- I'm not sure who you mean by "you guys" and "this lot". The contributors to the book? Stuart's friends? Some kind of online Who-fans-only version of Fight Club?

Either way I guess you're including me, given that I've been supportive of Stuart / critical of Shaun on my blog and (briefly, until the post was deleted) at the DWF.

I don't like to fight, even on the internet. To be honest, I hate getting involved with conflict. I just felt that something I saw as a petty, swaggering abuse of power on Shaun's part -- bullying, essentially -- shouldn't go unchallenged, so I did what I could to challenge it.

Like Stuart, I don't know Shaun personally, but I don't see how anyone could read the actual correspondence Stuart quotes and take away the view that Stuart was being provocative and Shaun reasonable.

4:40 pm  
Blogger Robin Brown said...

Good grief!

10:48 am  
Blogger Leon said...

Stuart your comments were out of order. I don't know Magister but you were obnoxious and intimidating to him.

You were then exactly the same towards Shaun and increased the intimidation with legal abuse.

You can try and hide it to yourself with an 'I was having a cheeky go' approach but it doesn't wash.

Clearly Shaun on first hearing from you with a direct legal threat decided he couldn't be assed to waste time with you. But you still want to advertise your books on his site.

I won't be buying your books and neither now will be many others due to your being an ass.

Well done.

12:21 pm  
Blogger Stuart Douglas said...

Hi Leon

I'm sorry that you felt I was out of order at any point but, to be honest, I'd be gobsmacked if you can genuinely manage to get your reading of the situation from my post (which contains absolutely every bit of correpondence in the matter, totally unmodified - I'm hiding nothing at all).

You'll have to forgive me in fact for thinking your opinion (given your bizarre summation and odd determination to say you don't know Magister) ill-informed and biased and (given the higher than expected sales of the book and the many, many supportive emails, posts and messages I've received) not really indicative of any opinion but your own.

Also since you seem to think this was the first time Shaun had heard from anyone about this, might I suggest you go back and read the post again?

12:33 pm  
Blogger Leon said...

Sorry Stuart but I came to my summation from reading your own alleged unbiased account of matters.

If you could look more clearly you could maybe see you don't do yourself any favours.

1:25 pm  
Blogger Stuart Douglas said...

Hi Leon

Well you're certainly entitled to your opinion, no matter how you claim to have come by it, how strange it may seem to others, and indeed in spite of the fact that so few people seem to agree with you.

However, and with all due respect, Magister made comments that were actionable and the mods/owner failed to act in spite of repeated and multiple requests from many different people as well and myself. Hence my polite email to Shaun informing him that his failure to act could lead to legal action. None of which equates to'legal abuse' in any way.

If you disagree then that is of course your perogative, but I am content that I did very little wrong and Magister, Shaun Lyon and Steven Hill are the ones who need to take a close look at themselves.

In closing, might I suggest that calling people an 'ass' - much like calling someone a 'twat' - does your credibility no favours and weakens your argument?

Otherwise, thanks for the feedback :)

2:00 pm  
Blogger Mark Clapham said...

Although I don't think this incident and the closure of the DWF are connected, I think the former is a symptom of why the latter had to happen. It's one thing to run a relatively tight online community of the kind OG was pre-2005 in a highly personalised way, another thing altogether to try that with a community that's hit 40,000 members. Regardless of your rights as owner, for sanity's sake you have to moderate with professionalism and an even hand, otherwise it just won't work. Best to quit and move on, I think.

It would be nice if the next big online place for Doctor Who fans was run by someone without existing fandom connections, who can moderate mercilessly and without favour or rancour. Something like Kotaku, where the mods bring the banhammer down without remorse if needed, but do so evenly and sensibly.

5:02 pm  
Blogger Stephen said...

Having only this blog post to go on, I'm afraid I read it the same way as Paul - your first email directly to Shaun threatened him with legal action. He overreacted, but I can see why.

Weird: the thread about this on Digital Spy's just disappeared.

7:21 pm  
Blogger Stuart Douglas said...

Hi Stephen

Thanks for dropping by. As with Paul's post, while it'd be lovely to think it was the first time Shaun had heard about this issue, for that to be true both I, Paul Magrs, Jon Dennis and even Steven Hill would have to be lying (plus the various people who I asked about the emails before I sent hem) - the alternative is for only Shaun to be lying.

Or of course he didn't get emails to three spearate email addresses from several different people, and his Facebook email was also mysteriously not working - all until I mentioned legal action, when lo and behold he finally and co-inceidntally got that email and replied with alacrity*.

Occam's razor is pretty clear on the probable truth given those circumstances.

Clearly you're entitled to disagree, but that would seem to me to be somewhat counter-intuitive and to require some fairly odd readings of the various emails.

* and it seems it's not the first time that's happened either - I was sent this link earlier today - http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=3039744&postcount=35

7:45 pm  
Blogger Stuart Douglas said...

Oh, and Mark - yes, exactly.

7:53 pm  
Blogger steveintheuk said...

Just read all that! Jeez! I almost feel like buying a book in support. Formerly very happy with DWF, now I begin to wonder...

8:46 pm  
Blogger Stuart Douglas said...

Steveintheuk - it "almost" made you buy the book? Damn, so close... :)

9:23 pm  
Blogger James said...

Yeah, what Philip said - below - with knobs on.


"I don't like to fight, even on the internet. To be honest, I hate getting involved with conflict. I just felt that something I saw as a petty, swaggering abuse of power on Shaun's part -- bullying, essentially -- shouldn't go unchallenged, so I did what I could to challenge it.

Like Stuart, I don't know Shaun personally, but I don't see how anyone could read the actual correspondence Stuart quotes and take away the view that Stuart was being provocative and Shaun reasonable."

8:08 am  
Blogger James said...

"* and it seems it's not the first time that's happened either - I was sent this link earlier today - http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=3039744&postcount=35"

What a complete c*nt.

Seems you were quite right to send the entirely professional but firm letter you did.

And, it seems, we're all well rid of him with the closing of his forum.

Not that I've ever wanted to spend the money and time, but I certainly won't ever go to any of his self-aggrandising conventions.

And I am getting thoroughly fed up of all the 'ooh don't criticise Shaun', who the fuck is he supposed to be, the fucking Queen?

What an arrogant, self-important, pompous, fraudulent arse.

8:24 am  
Blogger Stephen said...

"Clearly you're entitled to disagree, but that would seem to me to be somewhat counter-intuitive and to require some fairly odd readings of the various emails."

I don't think I've read anything oddly (though it's possible) - the first email you sent Shaun directly did threaten legal action. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation, it's easy to see how that could provoke a rather irritable response.

5:40 pm  
Blogger Stuart Douglas said...

Hi Stephen

Well I'm happy to agree to disagree :)

It does however seem the world's most charitable analysis to describe that last email as my first direct email to Shaun, given - as I said - the plethora of other emails to him.

Leaving aside all the various times and methods by which I and others contacted Lyon, you presumably believe that Steven Hill lied when he said

"Stuart,
Before I can respond to this myself, I need to have Shaun take a look at it. Any time anyone mentions legal complications, it becomes Shaun's business.
-Steve"

Like I said, it seems to me to be an odd (or at least highly idiosyncratic) reading of the situation to portray Lyon as in any way the wronged party.

7:20 pm  
Blogger Bill said...

What do you have to say about this, taken from the DWF forum rules?

"By both registering for this Forum and agreeing to these rules, you agree that you, and you alone, are responsible for the content of your own posts and chatroom statements, and you agree to hold harmless the Doctor Who Forum, its administrators and moderators and other staff members, its registered posters, and/or Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. (developers of vBulletin) for any content viewed, read or downloaded herein. You therefore agree that, by using this discussion forum and/or chat room, you shall indemnify and hold the owner of doctorwhoforum.com and gallifreyone.com, the forum's administrators and moderators, Sparrow Creek Ltd./Gallifrey One Conventions/Gallifrey One, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., SigmaChat Ltd., Nexcess.net, their staff, and agents, harmless from and against any liability (including libel and slander), claims, damages, losses, costs and expenses (including attorneys' fees) relating to any acts or omissions by users or to materials or information transmitted by users in connection with the use of the website, chat rooms or discussion forum. You understand that each message expresses the views of its author, and not necessarily the views of the forum administrators or staff or any entity associated with the website, Gallifrey One Conventions, the Time Meddlers of Los Angeles or any other organization. Any information contained in this forum is delivered "as-is" without any form of warranty expressed or implied. Any use of the information contained within is solely at your own risk."

Just wondering why, even after that, you'd consider being a bully and threatening an innocent party with a lawsuit over a stupid little personal spat with a nobody.

6:00 am  
Blogger David said...

I'm not sure how to debate with people who say that your first e-mail to Shaun threatened legal action when it patently wasn't the first one.

Oh well the book is aces anyway.

10:08 am  
Blogger Stuart Douglas said...

Hi Bill

Just a quick reply because - while Paul and Stephen's emails were polite and intelligent, even though I think wrong - that makes you and Leon (and Shaun Lyon initially) falling swiftly back onto incoherence and name calling, which is slightly dull.

I did in fact see that part of the rules - my lawyer friend copied it to me in his first email, with the comment that it is nonsense and has no legal authority whatsoever.

To simplify things - were I to set up a website which allowed numerous repeated libels against a Mr X, merely putting a sign up saying 'Nothing to do with me' wouldn't really cover me for anything.

In a world where ISPs can be sued for content on their servers and bittorrent hosting site owners go to jail for merely providing information which could be used to break the law, a forum owner who ignores repeated requests to remove libellous material is the person to whom initial action would be taken.

HTH - but any more name calling and I'm going to have to put these comments on moderation.

Wait there! My God, what a revolutionary thought! Prevent name calling and poor bnehaviour by moderating potential cuplrits! If only someone at DWF had thought of that!

:)

Stuart

11:19 am  

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